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[Joseph]

Did Jesus actually die for the sins of the world in anyway greater than Tupac Shakur died for the sins of the world?

Here is a youtube clip about Tupac who died for exposing the Illuminati. In his last album, killuminati, the cover is him dying on the cross. This is quite inspirational actually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU3CDNSc3iA

But my question is, did Jesus actually die for the sins of the world so that if we are guilty and if we wallow in his blood, we come out white as snow? I have no idea. Bible is the only way we know about it. Although things happen for a reason, and there are no accidents, but still Bible is full of contradictions, hatred, and violence.

[roage]

But my question is, did Jesus actually die for the sins of the world so that if we are guilty and if we wallow in his blood, we come out white as snow? I have no idea. Bible is the only way we know about it. Although things happen for a reason, and there are no accidents, but still Bible is full of contradictions, hatred, and violence.

That question is personal as this is a subjective and personal experience for each of us.

Do you need someone to die such that you can know you are "forgiven"?

Do you understand how clever this is that because one perceives the world as "evil" or "damaged" and our selves as "fallen", that we start out with this contrived notion that we are lacking and must "do something" to remedy it?

Then there appears the charlatan with a remedy who says one must bow, wear funny hats or even beat themselves because they are not worthy and that will somehow make them whole, but only after they die.

"What a brilliant scam!"

This idea of creating false motivational obligation permeates our lives and is one of the simpler manipulation tools being employed against us.

Look at the idea that we must feel obligated to pay someone who created colorable or fictional monetary obligations and arbitrarily decide who "owes" whom. How can we feel so compelled to pay back something of a "value" we cannot even hold in our hands?

Does not Ø provide us food? Would that not be a necessity as a basic function of our educational experience? Are we not evolved enough to get past the lesson of basic food procurement? Why do we choose to dwell with this shackle of "planned and deliberate scarcity" when we can have all the abundance when we choose to? Who are we to believe we must obligate ourselves to servitude for that which should be a natural and basic right? Why do we feel it is the right of others to deny us? Is it simply because we are too stupid to know the difference?

I require no "fixing" or absolution. I am not fallen or broken. I simply am.

It is when we indulge our fear where we engage in the level of perversion of those who we choose as our masters where we deserve the suffering and cause our own "experiential discomfort".

Joseph you have out grown the Church and have already concluded its usefulness and contribution to the world.

You have already made the choice that the odd hoops you are made to jump through are not worth the trouble to be re-accepted into the fold. What you must resolve is your fear of being free.

You might be ready for this:

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Your-Church-Doesnt-Want/dp/0978721381/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276446309&sr=1-1

[maja]

Hi Joseph, nice to meet you (I'm kind of new to this forum).

I always wanted to talk to a church representative (pastor, priest...).The reason why, is that I was always so fascinated/confused how can people believe in organized religions. As early as in my teens the only thing I needed to read was the first few commandments from the Bible to KNOW that the church has nothing to do with God. It was so clear to me ...You shall have no other gods before me... You shall not make for yourself an idol... You shall not bow down to them or worship them... and yet that is exactly what the church propagate us to do.(Unfortunately, instead of the religion trap I fell into the accident/chance trap, and it took me more than 30 years to figure that one out). Now I know why my wish did not come through (until today ) ... because it would serve no purpose but to inforce my already bloated Ego. The priest would not change my belief, nor will I be able to change his.

This Game/Universe is designed for us to sin and fail....the purpose is to learn through our sinning/failure. We all got different parts (life experiences) in it in order to cover all possible lessons from all possible angles. So there is no need for Ø to forgive us... and yet, to pass through the door we need to forgive ourselves...

Love

[Joseph]

I always wanted to talk to a church representative (pastor, priest...).The reason why, is that I was always so fascinated/confused how can people believe in organized religions.

I don't know if this is true, but it might has to do with genetics. Somebody in University of Minneosta discovered God gene several years ago. The research says when a person is young, the belief of the person is statistically correlated with the beliefs of their parents. But after they reach the age of critical thinking, that correlation ends. Their beliefs become correlated with this God gene. Some people think it is utter nonsense, but I have not seen the research. I have just heard of it.

Or maybe it has to do with your past life conditioning. People from the East would say if you were a devout church goer in your last life, that pattern continues into this life.

I don't know what the answer is. I personally grew up with it. I believed it because everone else did. I trust people who told me they are true, because they are nice people. I started doubting it back in 2000. But I entered Seminary anyway. It snow balled gradually until I no longer believed in it 2-3 years ago. Seminary education actually helped me to look at the Bible more closely and accelerated the process of breaking free from it.

In the last 2-3 years though, I went from not believe in it completely to believe in it partially. Right now I am trying to salvage it. I want to grab what is true and take them with me. I think there must be some very important truth in Christianity otherwise I don't know why the Roman Empire wanted to subvert it so badly. The Catholic church didn't even allow their own priests to read the scriptures until around the time of reformation.

[maja]

Yes!
It might be written in the genes and then the question is: who put that information there in the first place and why?
I used to think, in my ego arrogance, that me being able to see through some of the major lies and deceptions we humans are subjected to, was because I'm smarter and more logical, but now I know that it is because Ø wanted it to be that way, I just got that part, you got yours and we both agreed on the characters we will be playing. Nobody is more special than anyone else. One aspect of my life experience was for Ø to learn what happens when the veil is partly lifted on one side (do I need to mention that I pulled the veil back down? )
As for the Bible, it certainly must contain a lot of Truth or it wouldn't have the power to deceit people for so long. And I plan to read it from a right-brain perspective (ups, I shouldn't plan anything ) when the Truthful words are obvious and when you get their meaning.
Have you read The Gospel of Thomas?

[D@mien]

My take on it is that Jesus lesson was that we all are sons and daughters of god and that we through love, forgiveness and courage have it in us to be christ-like. Since all is as it should be it wasn't meant to shift in all at that time. He and others came before to walk up a path for those that follows. A seed was planted and the time for the fruit to ripen may seem long in human eyes but in universal eyes it may not even be a blink of the eye. Some institutes still have a fear of the day when all awake to se that humans as authorities is a lie. I feel it to be a scorn to make a symbol of him on the cross, which for me is a scare tactic (don't seek his ways or this will be your end). And i believe psychiatry the modern day scare mongers have a term of "jesus psychosis" for people who starts to open up their hearts. They had to make a fiction that it takes some kind of superman to live by love and that the rest of the humans is only animals who can never reach that.

"If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see demons tearing your life away. If you've made your peace, then the demons are really angels, freeing you from the earth." - Jacob's ladder

“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small doesn’t serve the world. There’s nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won’t feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We are born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It’s not just in some of us, it’s in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.” - Marianne Williamson

[Joseph]

Thanks Maja and Damian

I think the conspiracy of organized Christianity is to put as many barriers between humans and God as possible. There are priests, pastors, church rituals, and requirements that get in the way. Also Bible gets in the way as well. Once a person gets through those, there is this Jesus as a mental concept that stands in the way. Devout Christians have no chance at genuine spirituality because of all the things that get in the way. But God is actually everywhere, everything, and all around us. So we don't need this special in between being that brings us to God.

[Richard]

Control, who's in control? Then, now, long ago, tomorrow. Is it the situation or place which determines such? Is it built internally or some external force or being? Does not the bible claim from Jesus something along the lines of all this and more are you capable of...as well as how God takes care of the sparrows thusly won't you be taken care of as well?

Were you something before earth and this incarnation known as man? Will you be something after? or Is this conceptualization just something for this experience....all is...thus part of the all...create... are you or is any creature/thing capable of such?

And awaken to what, the fact that man is capable of manipulating, not creating but manipulating? Forgiveness, what have you done wrong? Born a human, thusly flawed, basically evil...who would create such.....or, is this manipulation, on purpose or misunderstood/misguided? We also seem to be capable of making choices.....though semantically maybe it is all predetermined...at which point, does anything matter or is it all out of control? Do you control your actions and reactions? Sometime, anytime or do you only think/fool yourself into beieving so?

Lots of Questions, conceptualizations, something to think about, and maybe even answer or have someone else answer them for you.....can we, should we, shall we be able to get along with each other without understandings and agreements and acceptances (sounds like a contract) What/which game am I playing and what are the rules? and finally do I have to, why do I have to?

[roage]

Yes!
It might be written in the genes and then the question is: who put that information there in the first place and why?
I used to think, in my ego arrogance, that me being able to see through some of the major lies and deceptions we humans are subjected to, was because I'm smarter and more logical, but now I know that it is because Ø wanted it to be that way, I just got that part, you got yours and we both agreed on the characters we will be playing. Nobody is more special than anyone else. One aspect of my life experience was for Ø to learn what happens when the veil is partly lifted on one side (do I need to mention that I pulled the veil back down? )
As for the Bible, it certainly must contain a lot of Truth or it wouldn't have the power to deceit people for so long. And I plan to read it from a right-brain perspective (ups, I shouldn't plan anything ) when the Truthful words are obvious and when you get their meaning.
Have you read The Gospel of Thomas?

There is much truth in the Bible but it is symbolic, and encoded. One need not waste time with it until they cultivate a demonstrable relationship with Ø. Once that is done and one returns to scripture than things begin to make sense but not until one does this. However, that insight transcends tho scripture and the world itself and everyone and thing in it becomes a deep and meaningful journey.

One little clue Maja. You appear to draw a distinction between you and Ø. That is how it appears in the left-brain. That is how we "think" it is. The way we "feel" is that you and Ø are one. We just decided to allow ourself to think we are many and we had it in our power to do so. The limitations that are placed on an individual experience we all had a choice in placing and it is all willing. Inside the individual experience it is nothing but boundaries. Outside of that experience those boundaries are a strange and distant concept.

[maja]

Roage wrote:
One little clue Maja. You appear to draw a distinction between you and Ø. That is how it appears in the left-brain. That is how we "think" it is. The way we "feel" is that you and Ø are one. We just decided to allow ourself to think we are many and we had it in our power to do so. The limitations that are placed on an individual experience we all had a choice in placing and it is all willing. Inside the individual experience it is nothing but boundaries. Outside of that experience those boundaries are a strange and distant concept.

Yes, I get that, but only logicaly, I still do not feel it, only sometimes but certainly not all of the time... Before finding roage.com and the theory of observers as facets of one consciousness, I even had a hypothesis that goes to the extreme: since I could only possibly know for sure without a doubt that I have a consciousness and cannot be certain of anyone elses, maybe it is the only consciousness that exist and everyone and everything else is just a fiction, illusion of my mind....I am sure someone already had that same thought though it is not something I read... I know it sounds completely preposterous but more importantly it doesn't feel right, so I abandoned it pretty quickly. But it also, in a weird kind of way, proves that we are one and that really there is only one consciousness.