roage.free-forum.net

[james]

Just thought I'd register, say 'hi' and give thanks for this site, since I've been reading it for a couple of days. It's definitely exposed and loosened up a bunch of conditioning and unconscious games I hadn't identified before and came as a fresh challenge/boost at just the right time. I'm studying the contract law and sovereign status stuff at the moment. I was happy to push 'the button' knowing I wasn't fully clued-up on the scheme, but also want to be able to ask for sovereignty properly.

There's been a migrating away from total left brain dominance for about a year now. Before then I led a pretty much unconscious life for 36 years. Then I had an sudden-onset existential crisis which really rattled my cage and that is still going on today. I've no idea why or how I got that wake up call to start searching for who I really am and what truth is, but I'm joyously thankful for it. So much junk has been thrown out or just gave up and withered away. And yet there's so much left to do, which is also great. The journey is fascinating.

Occasionally I'm frustrated that there has been no bona-fide 'awakening' yet (of the seismic variety), even though the ego want to feel entitled to it based on apparent progress. That progress includes: When I look for it there is no 'me' to be found, and when I meditate well there's just a deep silence and sensations popping in and out of awareness. I'm pretty much convinced as much as I can be from experiential investigations that my own free will is an illusion, and that thoughts (and conscious intent) are really an effect of stuff happening rather than a cause of anything.

In fact cause and effect, time, space, objective reality... it all looks pretty shaky as truth under scrutiny (every mind concept/construct does). And, ego is of course tricky and would love me to say this anyway, but the ego has definitely diminished quite considerably compared to what it was, and it is having to get subtler and subtler to operate effectively. When it does operate without remembering to put stealth mode on it's weird to watch, almost amusing - like a bad actor overly-dramatizing things.

Everything is questionable on every level, it's crazy wonderful. There's the conditioning from society, parents, peers on a certain level which is all very interesting to look into, but that's all only relevant within its own scope, which is in turn encapsulated within a bigger picture which has its own super-questions that render the smaller ones moot, and on it goes.

For this entire year I've been really feeling that everything is purposeless, pointless, meaningless, essentially empty, the-universe-is-totally-indifferent kind of thing (not in a depressive way, I might add), but I also know that this belief is not truth. What I mean to say by that is that it might or might not be the truth for all I actually know, not that I know it's not true if you see what I mean. Dissatisfaction and therefore suffering is created out of this 'belief vs knowing-that-belief-isn't-KNOWING-THE-TRUTH-BEYOND-DOUBT' split.

That split is what is driving the "why aren't I awakening or at least had a glimpse" frustration. Poor me lol, a victim again! Writing all this down it seems kind of silly to complain about, but of course I am still so very silly and have so far to go, so I forgive myself.

Anyway, I've gone on and on haven't I? Thank you again for the website, and for the opportunity to write to you (and to myself) on this forum. I'd love to hear any words of advice and caution anyone has to offer.

[james]

Sorry for posting that in the wrong category, it should have been in 'Just Gabbing'. Maybe someone could move it.

[roage]

[quote="james"Occasionally I'm frustrated that there has been no bona-fide 'awakening' yet (of the seismic variety), even though the ego want to feel entitled to it based on apparent progress.[/quote]

Hi James,

A man does not state what you just declared without a significant changed. It is ego that expects an earth shattering event or a sign and wonder. Men who have not transitioned cannot speak those words or even realize their meaning. Ego likes to hide this from the observer but know that where you are is light-years from where you were.

No thanks are necessary as I quite enjoy watching those wake up as I know they are a fractional part of me with new eyes and it tells me a wonderful change is taking place.

Welcome

[james]

A man does not state what you just declared without a significant changed.

Does this mean I took up {}'s offer a year ago already when I first admitted life felt incomplete and phoney? I'd had this feeling ever since I could remember, probably like every single man and woman does, but instead of admitting it had distracted myself with whatever was to hand. Looking back on it I was having a hard time avoiding this unpleasant fact, because the ego had to do some pretty diabolical things to myself to stop myself facing it (compulsive sense pleasure overdoses and lots of cliched films made in my head with myself cast as the protagonist). Was this admission the start of the pre-contract?

Or was I just somehow lucky enough to receive {}'s grace?

It seems like a legitimate question, because I'm not sure 'I' can actually do anything (I'm an observer, after all), and so aren't I incapable of admitting anything?

So did {} just suddenly decide to try to find itself in this localized bit of consciousness, with me just thinking "it's personal"? If so, why did {} do this?

A bit of an unstructured post with too many questions and changes of direction in it, apologies.

Edit: I must admit to not being too sure who I'm directing these questions at (mix of self and other, of perhaps other as an excuse for self-probing), whether I expect any answers, whether meaningful answers are even possible to give, and if possible whether they will make any sense to me at this stage of the game. So some of these posts might sound semi-rhetorical, I guess.

[Seamus]

Welcome to the forum, James!

a few things to dwell on:

beside yourself, who else do you "owe" any of your labor, time, effort to? Why? How did that happen?

Do you have feelings of obligation to "society"? If so, why? How did that happen?

If you could do anything at all, what would it be? It has to be for you, not for the world or your wife or children. Now, what's keeping you from doing what you want to do? Why?

Lastly, why do you want to find enlightenment?

[james]

Hey!

beside yourself, who else do you "owe" any of your labor, time, effort to? Why? How did that happen?

I think I do, and have only ever done, the things I've wanted to do. Ego might say different, but it knows its lying. Random example: "I don't want to be at work today" is untrue from an ego viewpoint, if I am indeed at work. If I went home or to the park, there may be certain implications. Those implications are forward-projected by ego, and if unacceptable risks of losses to self image are detected, the action is not taken. So I think ego knows very well that it prefers to be at work. The complaining is dissatisfaction that it can't achieve both outcomes (protection of investment and wish fulfillment). The ego's projection exercises can be stimulated by the ego itself (seek 'advantage' - standard operating procedure), or by it picking up on intuition and rolling with it. In the latter case, intuition's value is weighed by how much trust ego has in it, and intuition's stock is routinely undervalued. After all, ego's purpose is risk-assessment, and intuition doesn't provide goals that are evaluable in that way, only open-ended directions.

Do you have feelings of obligation to "society"? If so, why? How did that happen?

Members of a society share a model of it, and are able to reason about the repercussions of model violations. Those repercussions are generally harmful to self image, unless your self image is of someone who violates society's rules, which kind of implies you aren't really a member anyway (only you can opt in or out, no-one can force you). You become a member of a society by 'going along with it', and if you act like you are bound to a contract then you will be.

If you could do anything at all, what would it be? It has to be for you, not for the world or your wife or children. Now, what's keeping you from doing what you want to do? Why?

It has to be this, what is. I'm taking responsibility for it squarely on the chin.

Lastly, why do you want to find enlightenment?

{} is coming for itself. "I" as ego couldn't make this up, it would be illogical from a survival perspective. So it's very clear that "I" do not want enlightenment, far from it. But "I" cannot veto it either. This presents a dilemma, so the ego finds a way to compromise by monkeying with the math so it can justify helping out (which it must do, it knows only goal attainment). It does this by conceptualizing what enlightenment is and inventing an alluring compensation and benefits package. This offsets the potentially unbounded risks that accompany the completely unknowable, and in this way the actuarial tables are fiddled, and 'rational' decision making order is restored.

So "I" do not want whatever enlightenment actually is, "I" want what the value that "I" have substituted in for the massive question mark at the end of the only road in town.

[Seamus]

Hey!

beside yourself, who else do you "owe" any of your labor, time, effort to? Why? How did that happen?

I think I do, and have only ever done, the things I've wanted to do. Ego might say different, but it knows its lying. [...] After all, ego's purpose is risk-assessment, and intuition doesn't provide goals that are evaluable in that way, only open-ended directions.

Outstanding.

Do you have feelings of obligation to "society"? If so, why? How did that happen?

Members of a society share a model of it, and are able to reason about the repercussions of model violations.

That's very logical, but unprovable. Until you name the society and thus make it clear which one is being discussed, it cannot be assumed that there is a shared model among ALL members. In fact, the model diverges even among siblings or spouses.

Those repercussions are generally harmful to self image, unless your self image is of someone who violates society's rules, which kind of implies you aren't really a member anyway (only you can opt in or out, no-one can force you).

it is not necessary to violate [a] society's rules in order for one to realize their impotence. But those who are free will often find themselves on the 'wrong' side of statutory law.

You become a member of a society by 'going along with it', and if you act like you are bound to a contract then you will be.

Excellent, and quite true.

If you could do anything at all, what would it be? It has to be for you, not for the world or your wife or children. Now, what's keeping you from doing what you want to do? Why?

It has to be this, what is. I'm taking responsibility for it squarely on the chin.

Wow, man, you're close if not already in the door.

Lastly, why do you want to find enlightenment?

{} is coming for itself. "I" as ego couldn't make this up, it would be illogical from a survival perspective. So it's very clear that "I" do not want enlightenment, far from it. But "I" cannot veto it either. This presents a dilemma, so the ego finds a way to compromise by monkeying with the math so it can justify helping out (which it must do, it knows only goal attainment). It does this by conceptualizing what enlightenment is and inventing an alluring compensation and benefits package. This offsets the potentially unbounded risks that accompany the completely unknowable, and in this way the actuarial tables are fiddled, and 'rational' decision making order is restored.

So "I" do not want whatever enlightenment actually is, "I" want what the value that "I" have substituted in for the massive question mark at the end of the only road in town.

Class is in session! Wow!

There is an "I" that is real. But we all have the exact same POV from "inside" it. That makes this 3 or 4-dimensional game worth the effort. Ø cannot know itself as an other would except by causing itself to believe that it IS an Other!

[james]

Members of a society share a model of it, and are able to reason about the repercussions of model violations.

That's very logical, but unprovable. Until you name the society and thus make it clear which one is being discussed, it cannot be assumed that there is a shared model among ALL members. In fact, the model diverges even among siblings or spouses.

Yes... There can only ever be individuals' models of a society. A model is a concept, concepts are only mental constructs, and since we can't access each others' consciousnesses there cannot be true sharing of them, and there can be no cast-iron guarantees about model similarity, even if two people agree with each other verbally or in writing that they have exactly the same understanding.

This chain of thought has sparked a recollection of roage's words (which I attempt to paraphrase here) "there must be a meeting of minds: a written contract is merely documentation of that". In the case of a contract with {}, one can say the model of the contract IS truly shared, since {} sees the contents of consciousness.

Those repercussions are generally harmful to self image, unless your self image is of someone who violates society's rules, which kind of implies you aren't really a member anyway (only you can opt in or out, no-one can force you).

it is not necessary to violate [a] society's rules in order for one to realize their impotence. But those who are free will often find themselves on the 'wrong' side of statutory law.

Yes, the rules of a game are only as important as the importance I give them, and I can realize how important they are to me by seeing how uncomfortable I get when imagining the various consequences of a violation, in conjunction with the chances of the violation being detected.

Thanks very much for these questions and follow ups. It's bringing up a lot of unconscious conditioning for conscious review.

[Seamus]

The first book I read at a time when I was ready to bring many conditioned concepts up for conscious review, as you so succintly put it, was "How I Clobbered Every Bureaucratic Cash-Confiscatory Agency Known To Man" by Mary-Elizabeth:Croft (free PDFs abound, with the author's blessing)

The title is misleading, since nowhere in the book does she give you the concrete 'how' of her clobbering. However, the concepts in there relating to self-ownership and individual (contractual) sovereignty were very helpful.

[teetee]

Hello. I am here as well. I pressed the button, too.

If I made a commitment like this to myself earlier this year, and it has brought so much clarity, happiness and potential to my life, would pressing the button augment that?

This thread is a "hello" and a "question" in a sense, but I already know the answer to my question.... yes.

Just thought I would share.