roage.free-forum.net

[Thomas]

Found this gem today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ

great imagery to go with it!

[roage]

Found this gem today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ

great imagery to go with it!

At the risk of appearing monstrous. I do not agree that we must renter the cave and help "liberate" others from their shackles. It does not work and it causes "consequences" to do so. This tendency or value system that places this activity of helping those who would not be helped is actually born out of the culture within the cave and not without. I say I need not help until the slave decides they have had enough and chooses to truly become free. At that point they have it in themselves to help themselves and my involvement is not really needed. Seamus and I talked about how service to others is more "nobler" than service to "self". I say those who came up with that value assessment use in such a way to manipulate my behavior by judging me ignoble because I tend to my own well being. What a world it would be if we all actually tended to the sad state we each have fallen instead of blaming others and relying on other to tel us and "help" us out of our own laziness and stubbornness. No, I am not going into the cave to help. If you see me in there and it inspires one to seek a change in state then so be it. I am only there for comedic entertainment value. It is like watching a train wreck. The train is going to wreck regardless if I throw my body in front of it or not.

I am casting off these arbitrary and imposing value systems posited by groups who decided long ago the "right" and "wrong" ways to exist. These manipulations have resulted in the most enslaved mentality that could ever be imagined. Forgive me if I do not go that way. On second thought. Forgiveness comes from someplace else and whether a man forgives me or not does not factor into my experience. Even this need for validation and forgiveness comes from some long dead manipulator deciding what is best for me. After thinking long and hard on it. I decided that I am not guilty as it is merely part of the show.

[Seamus]

I agree with Roger.

you will only injure yourself and create karmic entanglements (if you believe in such things) by trying to release a slave who is not ready to be free.

plus, you will thenceforth be responsible for the slave, since it was not an act on his part of self-responsibility that led to his freedom.

there is no force in the universe that can keep someone from freeing his mind, when he is ready.

[Richard]

Hmmm
Taking something as real for that is all you know...and what happens when other realities are presented? Somewhere I read theories that the Native Americans couldn't even see the first ships from Europe, because they had no known reference points for such things. And years ago there was a movie where I think it was a coke bottle which fell from a plane and the natives thought this to be a gift of the Gods.
And today different creatures here on planet earth see and here and feel and smell on and in different spectrums than each other.

So, while I agree that to attempt to force someone or other being into doing something against their will or that they are not ready for is wrong...to present opportunity would seem the way for the whole of us to grow....or possibly so anyway.

In some of the work I do the saying is the Spirit in me greets the Spirit in you, how might I be of service/help to you?....thusly, the One of which we are All is helping itself thru the illusion of duality. If this seems cornfusing....say you had a spot which needed itching but you couldn't reach...thus the service.

Also, Roage went to all the trouble and took the time and made the effort to compile his site...he didn't force us to read but gave us all the opportunity to do so (Thanks Roger) and then he came up with this forum as a way of offering to more and this sharing of ideas and understandings and now we have many here who so kindly help one another along the way.

So while you might not be taking off the shackles of unready/unwilling slaves.....you have and continue to present opportunity for those seeking and ready (to whatever extent) to free themselves...or so it seems from this perspective.

[roage]

Hmmm
So while you might not be taking off the shackles of unready/unwilling slaves.....you have and continue to present opportunity for those seeking and ready (to whatever extent) to free themselves...or so it seems from this perspective.

It was over-stepping that line from sharing to "helping" where I suffered. I will restructure the material to be the former.

Reality is subjective and personal so alternative realities are as real as the man or woman next to you. The are complete etch-a-sketch from our perspective as it meets our specific needs.

Attempting to promote forcibly one perception over another is folly as we are where we are on purpose.

[Richard]

Roage
I am a little confused...sharing to helping.....do you feel you were forcing your help?
I agree about are where we are on purpose....as I do in unconditional trust...which I believe means as well, that we need to listen to 'inner guidance' you my friend are aware I believe of the difference between this and ego leading or getting in the way. And remember that translating/ containing total perfection into just three dimensions... well...do we have but/just 5 senses? Doing and trying yes there is a difference....enough said.

[roage]

Roage
I am a little confused...sharing to helping.....do you feel you were forcing your help?
I agree about are where we are on purpose....as I do in unconditional trust...which I believe means as well, that we need to listen to 'inner guidance' you my friend are aware I believe of the difference between this and ego leading or getting in the way. And remember that translating/ containing total perfection into just three dimensions... well...do we have but/just 5 senses? Doing and trying yes there is a difference....enough said.

The error is attempting in answering the question before it is asked. When I attempt to promote the material as the means of bringing one to a point of perception modification it is an attempt to subvert the natural course in one's life. Yes I agree that some may be ready but not only was my effort to "help" unsuccessful it also cause consequences. The woman in Ego Land was a huge error in that I thought I could "help" her is I agreed with ther and merely waited for a time to "get it" such that she would see the truth that wanting me was not the natural order of things. At least from my perspective. That vanity caused huge problems and this ongoing violation yielded a chronic desolation in my experience. It was too much energy devoted to "helping". Naturally since the Universe tends to push down the mountains and fill in the valleys, that disproportion was met with extreme balancing forces. Realize that I am describing this in a left-brain way. The right-brain gist is this that this was merely more of the on-going test of the "intention/ co-creation" concept. I still cannot conclude that the "potent free will" actually exists. All my experiments yields the contrary in that I trick myself into believing that event occur as a function of my will. I still see a complete inability of avoiding clearly marked pitfalls. Whether I am conscious of them or not do not does not change the fact that they are necessary to experience and thus I am merely observing these events. This come round to the ultimate issue:

Can I even "help" anyone?

I am discovering that regardless if I focus on it or not the course these events takes, is outside of my influence. The attempt to run away from it does not work either. It is as it is. A left-brained thinker might conclude: "What is the point?" If things are on a track then why experience it. It is when we take a look at the word "experience" where the big issue unfolds. Is "managing it", "experiencing it"? Can we get as much out of the concept by making the movie or watching it being presented to us? I am afraid that this "movie making" activity does nothing other than distract us from the information being relayed and thus we typically revisit the same themes. Where it has been complicated for me is I am being shown "how I am being shown". I am learning how the "life is lived" and not how to "live the life". It is a "behind the scenes" look and becomes difficult as I typically attempt to attribute events to more mundane lessons. This inappropriate simplification of what is being taught causes it to be re-taught. I keep looking at the story and instead I should be looking at the way the story is related. This comes from a habitual tendency on my part to gravitate back to physicality. I am trying like Cypher to be re-inserted in the Matrix. To re-immerse myself in the experience with the new tools that I have learned. This cannot work as that is not the direction chosen. It means the experience is more strenuous and the subtle approach has been abandoned. A misstep generally requires a strong correction. Am I doing it? No, I am just watching and relating what I see. Onlookers must observe me as a total "sh_thead" but that is merely part of it. Most of those who used to post were either not able to grasp what was happening (including those close) or unwilling to immerse themselves fully into it. It is much easier to be the pariah or the outcast because it is easier to handle that way.

Most people would judge what happened to me this way:

I had a wonderful loving wife that was, in kindness and charity, thanking and honoring me. So I hit her.

For most that is how they understand it. I had to take full responsibility as it was my experience. The truth is the experience of others had much to do with the event. This is not blaming. Sometimes it is my place to be the red hot stove. Although there were burns the decision to place one's hand on the stove will occur at least once more. I am certain of it. Had it done what I had hoped I think 15 days in jail would be a fair trade as I had been waiting for 20 years. I am no longer trying to force a particular direction nor am I moving toward and kind of ideal. It is as it is. I did have some friends that apparently are gone. They must understand that I could only hope they could conclude rightly what had happened. I cannot tell them. I still hope that someday they can look past what they were told and see what is. Trying to once again bring the issue into consciousness was what led to the "fortunate" incident in the first place. I am not led to do that anymore...

[Richard]

Am I doing it? No I am just watching and relating what I see. I still can not conclude that the ' potent free will ' actually exists. I had to take full responsibillity as it was my experience. I am no longer trying to force a particular direction nor am I moving towards any kind of ideal. I am not led to do that anymore....

Roage your experience is yours....and yes drama much like some movies....whether making them or watching. Here is for learning.
You have shared ...so will I...

In my twenties I was at a party...it was in a house and was very crowded....during this party I had an experience of deja vu.
Because I had seen the whole thing in advance, I once again went through it, and made no attempt to change the outcome. (This of course presumes that I could have.) Anyway, I watched from across the room as one of the women at this party who had a cigarette in her hand let it get to close to my friends arm and it burnt a hole in his new favorite shirt. He came running over to me (as he was angry and putting some space between them was a good idea) and said, can you believe this she burnt a hole in my favorite new shirt? I said I know I watched the whole thing....he stared at me in disbelief...why didn't you stop it? I tried to explain about the deja vu and that I knew he wouldn't get burnt....but my shirt !

Since then I have had some times of deja vu again some with outcomes not benign... the outcome changed because I didn't
just observe the deja vued outcome...as a shirt is one thing or possibly my lesson was fore warned for armed. This is just some of my experience and not meant as judgement or reflection upon your own.

[Gooseone]

Boy , there seems to be an awful lot of "rationalisation" going on in here
It seems to me the game here is far beyond rationalisation if i look around and see al the seeming madness , which is perfectly normal for most
Contemplating on beforehand a situation one can find themselve in and making it a solid guide to go by does not sound enticing in my reality.

Standing stuck in traffic for miles , who's reality is it ?
We are blessed/cursed with a seemingly individual standpoint to this experiment , yet seeing the Universe as a continous feedback loop the the output
seems to depend not only on those individual standpoints ..it seems to be a multiculteral event

Still the point of view towards the outside world is unique and free for everyone to experiment with , there is no forcing anyone to see their reality differently
( although it seems people are easily tricked into making a reality they have not conciously chosen for)

It's a nice clip ..Plato's Cave ...yet helping other's being a task does not sit right with me , if one want's aid one can give it ...does not need any contemplation.
If one is walking along in a crowd and sees a person infront of them dropping something and not noticing , what is the natural reaction ?
(Oke ..oke i know very good thieves would probably act otherwise..but i'd like to think the natural tendency is to pick it up and say something )