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Questions/thoughts

Postby james » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:35 pm

Hello again, :)

1) Tolle's 'pain body' and relationship to ego

Sometimes I'll have urges to do things that don't seem like ego, they seem more like what Tolle describes as the pain body. It'll be a knotty type of impenetrably dark energy that wells up inside and creates a compulsion. The compulsion could be for on-the-face-of-it-innocuous thing (going to the fridge and loading up to feel full, despite not being hungry), or something that definitely wouldn't past the 'mum test', it's all the same at the core of it - the flavor of the compulsion merely changes depending on whatever floats the boat (in a positive, or more usually negative sense) at the time. The pain body energy and associated act-out are usually non-verbal, more primitive/instinctual.

Questions:

a) Is this completely different to ego, or somehow related?
b) If not related to ego, do you see this thing as important to address (it didn't spring out at me as something that was in the methodology)?
c) Would this knotty energy be more quickly dispelled by refusing to act out the compulsion, or by giving it high-beam attention when it's in effect?

2) Ego-driven action identified - abort or continue?

Since I'm at least partially distanced from ego, I feel (although this may well be an illusion at one level or another) the appearance of choice coming into play. If the ego says 'aha! you have an opportunity in this conversation to slip in something that will make you seem clever/senior to this other person, which will cement a germinating image on either side' I don't actually have to do it. But because I've already spotted it, in a way it doesn't really seem to matter whether I do it or not, because at that point it's already lost its power. It's like the ego knows it's failed, and what was some kind of karma-laden act has now turned into a transparent karma-free action.

Question: Is doing the opposite of what the ego wants helpful? Or is simply the noticing of the ego-led action enough?

3) Self-talk - what's the bearing?

Is the idea to:

a) Reduce ego chatter a lot, or
b) Silence the ego chatter completely, or
c) Let the chatter continue, just get more and more distance (to increasingly regard it as content rather than be immersed in it as subject)
d) Some other option (possibly a combo of the above)

4) Revolver

I watched the US version of this yesterday. I'd seen it before a few years ago and felt it was 'significant', but of course a whole new layer is there this time. I have the European version as well now, which I think is the better one according to other posts on this forum, and I'll watch that tonight. Some stuff I thought was all surface level is now rather obviously symbolic, and I can identify the existence of other symbols that are opaque to me. For instance 'Slim Biggins' - I'm not sure whether this guy might represent consciousness of divine law (gone away, but not truly gone, capable of redemption), or an at-arms-length plausibly-deniable hit man for ego (which is itself just a highly disguised bit of ego, but which is sufficiently distanced from itself to think it is autonomous, so much so that it attempts to switch sides when it sees its former master becoming weak, but which is effectively suicide).

Question: Should I make effort to decrypt the opaque symbols as much as possible (creating and testing hypotheses, reading around the references etc), or is it enough to simply watch it at various times and see what jumps out during each viewing?

(Edit: Perhaps beyond the obvious meanings, the only possible meanings are those which {} lets you see, which are right for your specific situation/phase at the time)

Cheers,

James
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Re: Questions/thoughts

Postby james » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:33 pm

It's strange that I've believed what I've thought (and continue to do so when my guard is down, which is quite a lot). I liked to see myself as a reasonably rational man, and yet I think I've fallen foul of a major logical fallacy when being asked (by myself or others) "Why do you think so?" after expressing an opinion. That fallacy is ipse dixit, AKA the implicit subtextual answer underneath a whole bunch of identity-protection countermeasures in the form of intelligent-sounding justifications, which is: "because I said so, and I what I say is correct", which is a self-referential argument with no logical basis.

Equally ludicrous-looking right now is when I find myself offering an unsolicited subjective qualitative opinions, like "that episode wasn't as good as the last one". I think the ego must only say such things to define itself reflexively. If no objections are heard, ego can feel validated. If counter-opinions exist, ego has a position to defend and, win or lose the discussion, it ends up being strengthened.

The same pattern doesn't neatly fit all opinion though. For instance in my profession I've become reasonably good at judging the relative merits of competing ideas or approaches, and I must do that without recourse to a subjective viewpoint wherever possible. I must sometimes be able to say that idea A is qualitatively worse than idea B, given a defined aim, scope and constraints, and be able to justify it all the way down back to only those things. So to contrast the "given A, solution B is better than C" case with the "that episode wasn't as good" case, how ego-driven the opinion is seems to be a function of how well-defined the game is.

Aha, therefore ego likes to play as loosely-defined game as possible so its chances of win/win (which might include apparent terrible losses) are maximized.

Now I'm starting to wonder under what circumstances if any the ego can ever actually lose without converting it to a win. I'm assuming a weakening of identification of the ego is an *actual* loss for the ego, and yet it has to be effected without the ego feeling it has lost, otherwise it would be converted to a win and I lose.

Tentative conclusions:

* Ego has a problem surviving in a well-defined game. Ceate or adopt rules. Perhaps this is the intent behind natural/contract/sovereign law in the methodology?
* Ego hasn't given me a major backlash (yet anyway) for being increasingly distanced/objectified but being allowed to continue its contortions, so it may not think it's losing, or that it's still in control. Continue.
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Re: Questions/thoughts

Postby james » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:10 pm

On the page "Why is it Important For My Spiritual Growth to Know the Law?" (http://www.roage.com/default.aspx?PageID=179) roage says:

It must be understood that the Ego does not protect the physical body it instead protects the being playing the game that wears the body like a suit.


It seems like the ego doesn’t realize that the thing it is trying to protect isn’t capable of being harmed. That’s probably because the ego doesn’t get any feedback from the thing its trying to protect; no evidence of whether its activities are improving affairs or worsening them. In this eerie silence it seems highly likely that an ego would get increasingly neurotic about whether it is discharging its self-appointed duties with enough diligence, and therefore keep cranking itself up to higher and higher defcons.

When the neuroses hit a high enough sustained peak, the body is exhausted of energy, the ego recognizes that it has failed, and a collapse happens after which a rebuild is possible.

In fact ego is really exhibiting the signs of a genetic algorithm, isn’t it? When one ego strain comes to an evolutionary dead end, the selection of a successor starts, using most of the same initialization parameters of previously-evaluated candidates but with random mutations thrown in (such factors are easily introduced during the ‘low state’ after a crash).

This gets us to the questions of what fitness function the ego might be using to determine how good it’s getting. Well, I don’t think it can have any that aren’t self-referential (“hey I’m doing well at protecting the package”, “what defines ‘doing well’?”, “i do”, “who is i?” “uh, me... ego”), and so it’s doomed to failure. The most convincing thing I can think of that it has to offer itself in the way of fitness is merely uptime: ‘I haven’t fallen over for a long time, so this could be the winner’.

Going back to why the ego doesn’t get any feedback... Is it because none is there, or because it simply isn’t heard? I think possibly the latter. Consciousness or focus is needed to hear what {} is saying, and perhaps all it ever says is ‘everything is OK’ in one way or another. But it says this very very quietly, and if one’s ears are pointed in the wrong direction, ego is making such a racket that it hogs all the consciousness and it gets drowned out.

So when you bring more consciousness over to {} (or it brings it back to itself) and away from ego, that is in fact enough to start ego standing down, since the feedback it needed to be able to self-regulate is now audible. It seems like there might be some kind of closed loop inevitability about awakening after that, since the more ego stands down, the more {} can see itself, and the more the ego stands down... Actual reality has a very good chance of breaking through I feel, simply by watching and waiting after the initial focus shift.

After only a few days ago thinking I didn't have an high level of explicit trust in {}, I now see that in actual fact I do. It has just not been recognized until now. If I didn't have that trust, I simply could not have arrived at this place. The implicit trust has just been made explicit.
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Re: Questions/thoughts

Postby roage » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:27 am

james wrote:The implicit trust has just been made explicit.


Excellent. It is in the knowing and not the thinking or feeling.

Ego is such a wonderful opponent that I cannot but marvel at its complexity and power to entertain and educate. Once beaten to a place where it gives up, it reinvents itself even more clever than before. It need not be a combatant when one watches closely the lessons ego teaches us. It is not an enemy it is a friend so loving it will not spare us a harsh consequence.

Great post and "I" find it wonderful to confirm out in the open that which "I" have been given.

Not many at a place where you are at. Don't be disappointed if your audience is small. Most cannot even find or read this, even if they want to. I have observed that the audience is growing slowly and for now that will have to suffice...
“In matters of experience: suffering succeeds where often conscience fails us.” Roage
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Re: Questions/thoughts

Postby Joseph » Sun Feb 20, 2011 5:52 am

Hi James. It's a very educational thread even though a lot of it is over my head. I hope you stick around and help some of us out.
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Re: Questions/thoughts

Postby curiotrope » Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:08 am

Nice in depth discussion of ego.

I've been pretty wary of ego lately--in myself and in others. In fact, there's some fear there, even though I realize fear is ego fuel. The cleverness of this hurdle is not lost on me--how to trust that the self will be able to spot and steer clear of ego when the ego is so good at blinding the self? Fear of my own blindness? Or the idea that it is even necessary to steer clear of ego came straight from the ego itself? I'm ready to dive down the rabbit hole. Perhaps I've just answered my own question, but surely more questions will follow.
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Re: Questions/thoughts

Postby curiotrope » Fri Sep 02, 2011 6:46 pm

Does forgiving myself mean trusting my ego, even though it has caused me suffering in the past?
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Re: Questions/thoughts

Postby roage » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:34 pm

curiotrope wrote:Does forgiving myself mean trusting my ego, even though it has caused me suffering in the past?


The suffering is what you are after because you seek to grow faster and that is the fastest way.

You trust the self and know that what self is allowing ego to do is exactly what provides you the maximum benefit.
“In matters of experience: suffering succeeds where often conscience fails us.” Roage
Image Because it is not that you do or how you think but it is what you stop doing and thinking. Switch Ø!
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Re: Questions/thoughts

Postby thequestforthequest » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:22 am

There is nothing to do.

Forgiveness ... is still, and quietly does nothing. .... It merely looks, and waits, and judges not.

A Course in Miracles, Workbook-pII.1.4:1,3
I live in a friendly universe.
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Re: Questions/thoughts

Postby roage » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:45 am

thequestforthequest wrote:There is nothing to do.


What you are is infinitely more important that what your body does.
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