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[Seamus]

In my other post in the Gabbing forum, I gave what seemed like all kinds of good reasons for getting onto what Indians (Native Americans don't call themselves Native Americans) call "The Good Red Road".

I'll add to them before knocking down my house of cards.

The leaders of the Eagle Spirit Circle here in Portland have provided me with an opportunity. For the last 2 weeks I have been housesitting at their home while they are in Eastern Oregon. They did so purely on the glowing recommendation of the couple whose couch I was sleeping on (I don't think that had a whole lot to do with the glow of the reference, but perhaps it did!). Since I have been here I have been surrounded with things of Indian spirituality.

Just yesterday I got an email from the leader of the Maka Oyate, the 'tiyoshpaye' that ran the sundance. In it he expresses a statement that brought my unease with Indian spirituality into clear, well-defined focus:

"LIVE EACH MOMENT WITH THE GOODNESS THE SPIRITS HAVE GIVEN US"

I saw that and said "Oh my God! They're bonkers!". I suddenly understood why the Indians were allowed by Ø to be steamrollered by Western Civilization (and believe me when I say I have agonized over that for over half my life). They give honor where it is not due! They do not honor supremely the ONE to whom that honor is truly due! To compound the problem, they KNOW there is one creator. But they still refuse to honor It as the source of everything. They would rather be victims of "evil spirits" when Ø decides to send no Buffalo because they are needlessly harassing their neighbors, for example.

Now I know why I was compelled to come out here to the Sundance. As the pinnacle of open ceremony (there are a good number of ceremonies that are only open to tribal or even clan members), it gave me an accurate perspective from which I would be able to understand the context of that statement in upper case above. Now, having seen the inside of the "Indigenous" mindset, I can declare Ø just in all things without any nagging questions in the back of my mind going "But what about...?"

God is setting me free! Jesus said it best when he said "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

Now here's a passage from the Bible that I have always had a problem with, but now I understand it in perhaps its original intent (or something close to it)

I never thought I would quote Paul in agreement with him... but here it goes:

Romans 1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

It's true. They prattle on about spirits and powers, so that it's obvious where they think true power comes from, but they only give lip service to Tunkashila, or "Wakang Tanka" , the name that literally means "Great Mystery". It is no surprise that they cry out in their prayers that Tunkashila would have mercy on them, that they are pitiful. They are! They love that victim role.

22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Now of course not all Indian children are disrespectful of their parents, or all the other things. But many of them are. It is with good reason that we have the stereotype of the drunk Indian.

Does that excuse the people at Carslisle Indian School for doing what they did? No, they went overboard, and they paid the consequences. But that's the point. You do the crime, you're gonna do the time, according to the nature of the crime. Men who abuse children meet unsavory ends, and nations that honor elemental forces instead of the Creator get turned over into the hands of real sovereigns for discipline.

God is good.

Though I am wondering how much of this I should lay on the elder whose house I'm staying in?

[roage]

Though I am wondering how much of this I should lay on the elder whose house I'm staying in?

If he is indeed the man you believe him to be then he would beg you for this. If not, then you have an insight that reinforces you against deception.

[Seamus]

Though I am wondering how much of this I should lay on the elder whose house I'm staying in?

If he is indeed the man you believe him to be then he would beg you for this. If not, then you have an insight that reinforces you against deception.

Interestingly, I don't have much of a preconceived notion about him. He is very subdued and simple in expression. I have not heard him speak much on any subject particularly, since he was engaged in his functions at each of the occasions on which I have seen him.

However, less than 2 hours after reading your words above, I laid eyes on a manuscript that has been on the kitchen counter since I have been here. My eyes were drawn to the following sentence, written by a witness to one of Rod's talks:
"It is beyond my understanding how he can not be resentful of the white man for annihilating his culture and his people. But he is so at peace, and I can't argue with that."

Perhaps this is a man who is ready for some truth.

[roage]

Perhaps this is a man who is ready for some truth.

Would you be revealing anything he does not already know?

[WolfSpiral]

Ridiculous. The only reason I can see Ø allowing the Natives to be slaughtered is to continue confusing and confounding people. They did give honor to Ø, but they also had the lesser pantheons to help understand Nature. Lots of their Shamans had strong connections with Ø and Nature. If anyone had more deserved to be steamrolled I believe it to be the one's wielding Ø as a weapon and justification of rape and murder; but of course that wasn't what Ø had in store for this world. If only we all were a bunch of Aborigines living in accordance to Divine Law and Nature. So many beautiful cultures were erased due to greed, racism and ignorance; I highly doubt Ø looked down upon them.

You just made the argument the church made in the justification of slaughtering them, they didn't have the same path to Ø and so they deserved to die?
Also, you can't go and group the "Indians" in one group and call them pitiful victims. I really hope I just misinterpreted what I read, cause otherwise I am disgusted.

[roage]

Ridiculous. The only reason I can see Ø allowing the Natives to be slaughtered is to continue confusing and confounding people. They did give honor to Ø, but they also had the lesser pantheons to help understand Nature. Lots of their Shamans had strong connections with Ø and Nature. If anyone had more deserved to be steamrolled I believe it to be the one's wielding Ø as a weapon and justification of rape and murder; but of course that wasn't what Ø had in store for this world. If only we all were a bunch of Aborigines living in accordance to Divine Law and Nature. So many beautiful cultures were erased due to greed, racism and ignorance; I highly doubt Ø looked down upon them.

You just made the argument the church made in the justification of slaughtering them, they didn't have the same path to Ø and so they deserved to die?
Also, you can't go and group the "Indians" in one group and call them pitiful victims. I really hope I just misinterpreted what I read, cause otherwise I am disgusted.

The confusion is the best part. From left-brain perspective, where the body is more than just a simulation and there is a perceived hard separation of consciousness then what you see is rigidly "evaluated". In the right-brain when the barriers of individuation are not so rigidly enforced there is much more of independent observation whereby the observer merely monitors that they see. The left brain suit does on its own accord what yields the most constructive education experience that fits the mind's character at that singular moment.

The question is when you mind occupies a focus on something in the singular moment and experiences discomfort.

[WolfSpiral]

Man, I've been thinking about this all day. First and foremost I'd like to apologize if I was offensive. I was still in the emotional momentum of reading it, and was rushing (and then became a little late) to work. And I agree Roage, the confusion is indeed the best part. We cannot find our way in the darkness if there isn't any darkness. I reacted pretty quickly to the idea this morning, I probably wouldn't have left a comment had I been relaxed and not rushing; thankfully the questions it took me to while pondering at work held many lessons.

I do have a question to ask though; was the original point that the Natives were allowed to be overpowered because their faith was divided into different aspects of Nature and Creation and not placed solely in one Creator?

[Deckard666]

@ WolfSpiral:
I agree with Seamus' interpretation and take it as a good hint. Even if it's just an inch you aim beside the boss you still miss him. It's an example of how easily you can manipulate the truth and send people into darkness. I compare it with Jesus. Making him "the King" in Christianity and putting him into the main focus of everything is the same as giving credit to nature and not the one who made it. Jesus is the way as in "look how it's done" but he's not the target.

Food for thought: Those Ego-based answer was necessary - you said yourself after that came the realization and that is always a good learning pusher isn't it? Back in the old paradigm we would have surely been lost in those ego-emotions and kept our silly point of view and maybe you and Seasmus would have fought over dozens of posts arguing who'r right. But after you can jack into the new paradigm those moment suddenly result in understanding.

Namaste,

Deckard

[roage]

I do have a question to ask though; was the original point that the Natives were allowed to be overpowered because their faith was divided into different aspects of Nature and Creation and not placed solely in one Creator?

Here is an excellent example of the question containing the answer.

Sovereignty is granted and protected only by the Ultimate granting authority. They lost their land because they were not sovereign as too few understood from where sovereignty flows.

This is true for the people who largely populate America now. They have no concept of true sovereignty so therefore the land and possessions where taken from them. Not by the Central Bankers because they like everything else have no control here, it was Ø that removed us from our wealth.

Most do not realize that they are penniless vagrants who have chosen, willingly, to place themselves as property of another.

The slave can never expect to be free if he blames the master for his enslavement.

[WolfSpiral]

This thread has been so enlightening for me these past two days of pondering. Oh! What ponderings. I just had some nice meditating outside and greeted Ø and verbally accepted the Omnipotent Authority as both creator and player(s) of the game. So, I did come up with yet another question.

Many different experiences have messengers of Ø, which are external (except when in a dream-state, voyage, or hallucination); since we are all in this interconnected web of fate, does Ø have messengers which are more spiritually advanced than us, help us (more or less directly)? Spirit Guides, Guardian Angels, lesser deities, ETs, etc etc. Or do you think those are personal perceptions projected from within us into "existence" to teach us what we already know?

Edit: I'm not asking because I think anyone has a definitive answer on other people's perspectives and visitations, but I am asking to ask.